Is PPM good enough to be sold outside Indiegogo?

PicoPix PicoPix Max (PPX620)
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I am really happy with my PPM. Especially from Hardware side everything seems high quality. For me also the software is OK but everytime I show it to others they seem a little bit confused about the appstore thing and the usability of some apps. One even asked if the aptoide store is legal.

I don’t consider us normal consumers. We are taking more efforts to understand the product in this forum here or during the campaign. Or even taking the risk of crowd funding makes us special consumers.

So I am wondering if you think, that the current state or general setup of the software is something that a normal consumer would accept? Do you know such a setup from other products which were on mass market and had success?

Even if a product is not suitable for mass market it still can have its niche for some special consumer groups, like more tech savvy people. For example this aptoide store reminds me on app stores I found on my Synology NAS or on a hacked Wii Console. Nice and good for tech savvy people but I would not recommend it to everybody.

What do you think?

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It depends on what it will be like towards the end of software development and tweaks, how many working apps there will be, I think if it has all the major popular streaming apps covered and airplay screen mirroring miracast etc working smoothy then most consumers can be satisfied, the current state probably not at full retail price.

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I don’t know how a product can be sold if users don’t have to update some apps, or other tricky stuff to use it. It’s a good stuff for indiegogo and I love mine.
Maybe it is a good proto for a new PPM with Android TV. Hope we will have a discount for the PPM2 a day :slight_smile:

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Using Aptoid Store is very common for projectors. If you take XGimi for example. They are using Aptiod store in all projectors. Actually I have an Xgimi H1. I was really impressed back in 2017 cause it was new on the market, but the support is really bad. Not to mention all other Chinese unknown brands with suspicious softwares and hardware quality… they all use Aptoid …or how was the other store called…

At the end, a projector’s purpose is to be a projector. If you want portability - you have it with PPM. Battery - great! Aptoid Store - whatever, it’s not a deal breaker at all. As long as you have enough brightness, image quality, good contrast (as far as it can be good on projectors), great connectivity (cause you have that with PPM and I especially like the SD card), quality hardware and decent software - it’s all good. Everything else is a bonus.

I haven’t received the PPM yet, but I have really high hopes, cause there is nothing else on the market that gathers all the goodies in such a small form factor. It really stands up to the price point if it delivers what is advertised. At the retail price they intend to sell it, sure, it’s pricier than others, but if you want to get all of those features in such a form factor - you’ll pay. :slight_smile: It’s just a different target group, not the average customer.

So yes, maybe the average customer can choose to buy an Android TV projector or the LG ones with their WebOS…but do they have what is actually takes to beat the PPM on form factor, brightness, portability? If the Play Store is a deal breaker, I’d say get a smart phone or a tablet :slight_smile: …maybe a TV…

Edit: Here is an example of the market adoption curve with explanation, cause for me, the PPM is without analogue on the market at the moment (if you consider everything that it delivers combined). Focus on the first three pillars…

As the curve shows, the PPM is not for everyone. Every single person has his own needs and opinion on what the projector should look like at this price. It’s just that the motivation (customers in the first three pillars) behind the decision to buy the PPM is very different from the ones in the other three :slight_smile: . That is why it’s an IGG campaign, cause the majority there are not just the average customer, but people who keep an eye on latest innovations and are willing spend money to get the latest tech. For example, I was considering an LG projector, which was at almost half the price from the retail one of PPM, but seeing the IGG campaign, despite the fact that the projector costed a bit more than the LG even on discount on IGG, I made the decision to back the campaign.

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As an average consumer, I wont accept this product at the suggested retail price for sure, especially when you look at the indiegogo campagin. Regardless what other available options on the market or tech limitation, what i expect, as an average consumer, and never own a projector before,

PPM should look like,

  1. fully compatible with android device/ apple device/ Windows wirelessly (video and audio sync with no issue)
  2. an smart android device with official Google play and support all official android apps
  3. can be used/ placed at side table (away from the centre of projection), regardless of video source (hdmi, usb-c, internal source or whatever)
  4. can always connect to bluetooh speaker and always in sync

The final product as at now, due to a number of issues, or whatever reasons, is far from my initial expectation.

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This is where we could make a difference as backers: to help iron out the kinks before it hits the stores. The more we find and solve now, the less there will be to run into by the general public.

Name me one device that

  1. … is and stays fully compatible with Android devices AND Apple devices AND Windows PC’s wirelessly (video and audio sync with no issue) (while you’re at it, define “fully compatible”)…
  2. … while being a smart Android device with official Google Play and support all official Android apps…
  3. and can be used / placed at an angle away from the centre of projection, regardless of video source (hdmi, usb-c, internal source or whatever)…
  4. and can always connect to bluetooh speaker and always in sync

I think you’ll struggle to come up with one. Unless Google, Apple, or Microsoft themselves make it, you’ll never have a chance of even getting close.

Note that I’m not saying these are not what we should want as customers and Philips Projection strive to achieve as manufacturers, but the engineering needed would cost so much that the product would be extremely expensive I fear.

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I am not complaining, i just tell you this is my initial expectation built from the indiegogo marketing info on the product, then of coz philips disclosed some of the limitations from time to time. I am not tech savvy to understand all those limitations from the beginning when the marketing team did not explicitly explain all these limitations, as an average consumer, especially for one who never own a projector before, i believe many people would have this false hope.

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I didn’t say or think you did, nor am I attacking you.

All I’m saying is that the unicorn you expect probably doesn’t exist yet.

So if we just change the marketing material all would be good, cause no expectatins?
Remember that the average consumer maybe wasn’t aware of the originally marketed capabilities which could lead to “false hope”, so if the ads / packaging don’t mention features in a way that doesn’t exist or work like, then whatever expectations they do make is on them I’d figure.

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Yes this should work, especially drop the bit about 4000 android apps, yes there probably is over 4000 apps even on the aptoide store but that will lead to a lot of false hopes for the regular consumer.

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My initial question was in this direction. Imagine it would be advertised exactly as it is know. Would it be suitable for general customers buying it offline from a shelf?

The topic of expectations, promises and reality is covered in many other threads.

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Nevermind. I will not recommend this product.

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Free to do, or do not, you are.

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https://www.xgimi.com/us/mogo-pro

There is one that can do all of those things…
And at about half the price. Is it 850 lumens? No, but apparently it still looks great.

It’s portable, battery powered, 1080p, adjusts from any angle with automatic vertical and horizontal keystone correction up to 40°, has Bluetooth support or Harmon and Kardon internal speakers, has GSM, proper Android TV, and doesn’t have weird to the Aptoide store.

It’s weird that you asked someone to name you one device 6 hours ago, when we were talking about this yesterday…

Also it’s not made by Google, or Apple or Microsoft. But by company that makes projectors, much like Screeneo, except they managed to actually make the Picopix Max.

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With 300 lumens I would personally not buy it (but I would also not buy 800 lumens PPM or other for 800 Eur). I see PPM “smart” part as lack of experience with Android devices and Google “policies”. In the end it would be much better (and cheaper) to make dumb projector with some “smart USB stick” that can be replaced like Epson or who did it - and for such product 500 Eur list price and 300 crowd finding will be acceptable - but I still hope I’ll enjoy my PPM when it arrives - but I’ll also probably not recommend it for full price especially to non tech savvy people - at least until some serious app store (Philips store?) or whole OS (Amazon Fire or WebOS, etc) will be available.

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I agree with you with regard to the app store. And I see most of answers are from techie people who think it’s fine.
But it’s terrible! Every app that is visible in the store should work on the projector otherwise it will look like some illegal hacked bit of software.
At the outset of funding, I thought it would have Google playstore on it.

In addition the fact that bluetooth won’t work if you use hdmi at the same time… That will always look like a fault and also stops me using streaming sticks to get round the crap play store

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To be fair, as far as I could gather from a quick search online they used to have no regular way of using Netflix (or apparently Disney+) at least until February this year - I don’t know if any new firmware releases have changed that.

And the suggested workarounds on various youtube videos seem to only offer SD resolution, so on that front the PicoPix seems to be much more userfriendly (albeit still using a workaround, but at least one that’s directly available).

Also, the cheapest I could find this for (although I haven’t searched extensively), was at 599€, so not quite half the price (though of course still cheaper than the suggested retail price for the PicoPix Max).

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My opinion on that specific question : The ppm at recommended retail price is a niche product, not a mass public product. It may find its audience for very specific needs (2 main factors : very small size / brightness). At full price, the public will prefer the cheaper ones such as xgimi/xiaomi/LG. At a discount price (closer to IGG price) it may become attractive to the mass.

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From what I hear the Xgimi Products are great until they break down and warranty then becomes an apparent issue.

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brightness is probably the kill spec over competitors, saying that, CPU is weak, User Interface is unacceptable, I candidate myself as developer for Next UI, Ivo can you do something ? :slight_smile: Long story short, I think for 500eur it will be purchasable, for 800 gotta think at it seriously with actual specs.

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Weak for doing what? Raytraced 4K graphics?

Which part, and how so? My kids and my wife can use it just fine, not much different than our Sony Bravia with Android TV

What did you have in mind for me to do?